Helping Millions of People with Accessible QR Codes – Caspar Thykier

Solutions, can be multifaceted and they can throw up, use cases that you absolutely hadn't thought of. Zapbox and Zapvision are amazingly, conceived from a single computer vision sort of structure, so yeah, I guess that's the thought that we can get.

I I think that right there, is a gem. And you started to say something interesting, so I just hit record. Hello and welcome to the Glow Up Fabulous Conversations with Innovative Minds. Today, I have the extreme pleasure of talking with Casper Thykier of Zappar Caspar, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today. it has been a minute since I've got to talk with you. I'm very excited, but for those, out there who may not, have met you yet, can you tell us, about what you do and, where you make innovation happen in the world?

Yeah, sure. well, as you said, my name's Casper. I'm the CEO and co founder at Zappar my background, which might be slightly relevant, has always been in, marketing and advertising, communication, and then, through into the crazy world of, digital and technology, where I spent quite a decent amount of time looking at, virtual worlds, but at a very, early period, actually with PlayStation Home on PlayStation 3, before then, leapfrogging into the whole area of augmented reality, and, You know, I think I'd have to say, as a big disclaimer that I am not an engineer. And in fact, I'm actually not even particularly technical. I have an actually incredible ability to break most technology, which maybe that's my, my interest in it. So I really love the business of business. I love how tech can help transform, sectors and lives. and that's always been, a wonderful starting point at the moment where Zappar was conceived about 13 years ago, and we started to think about what does augmented reality mean when it can be on a handheld device?" You know, obviously ar technology that's been around for such a long time. but when it became untethered from a desktop. and was something that you could have in your hand and meant that, you know, that camera on that device, we could layer content on top of it. Well, what's that good for? so I think our innovation journey. and I'm very fortunate to have three amazing co founders, two who really are technologists. Dr. Simon Taylor, who's our Chief R& D Officer at the University of Cambridge, Connel Gould, our CTO, also from the University of Cambridge, and Kirk Ewing, who comes from a games development background. I think we all sat around and went,"this thing called AR on mobile, That's interesting, but what's it for?" You know, what is the problem, it's solving? And, 13 years on, we're still, exploring that, you know, we haven't answered it. I think we've found some very good use cases, but what's it for? You know, as we've talked about before, Nathan, I absolutely believe that the whole area of immersive technologies is a marathon and not a sprint. It is something that you are constantly innovating, you're constantly learning, and, it is not being a straight line. I think it's fair to say.

So, thirteen years ago, thinking about augmented reality on the PlayStation 3. Can you tell me just a little bit about what that was that you were making 13 years ago? this is, uh, 2011 ish.

This is, well, I guess there's two different things. so Kirk and I, had another business that was called VME, which, sort of, I guess, stood for Make Me Virtual. And that was actually a studio that was making, content for PlayStation Home, which was the, sort of, It's almost like a gaming metaverse that you could access from PlayStation 3 for gamers to hang out and, you know, between, I guess, playing other AAA titles. And so we had a studio that was making branded content in that space. In fact, we came up with our own stuff. We made a virtual park there as a place to put people to hang out and all that stuff. But it's actually whilst Kirk and I were working at VeeMee that we met Simon and Connell, who, had their own journey and their own path just about to leave, University of Cambridge, where they were working in augmented reality. And I guess because we were in the weird world of virtual reality, you know, we were selling virtual goods and all that good stuff for avatars and had our own virtual stores. So we were only interested in the monetization, I guess, of virtual goods. And the thought always occurred to us, well, what would that look like if it was augmented? You know, what would it look like if actually that could exist, on top of, apparel and other things in the real world? And along came Simon and Connell, with the technology, it was just leaps and bounds ahead of everything else that was going on around the time. I mean, there was some really good AR at the time, to be fair, Matteo, was kind of, I guess, leading the pack at the time, some pretty cool stuff that was being done, wikitude later. There were a few of us around at that point. There was this kind of amazing moment when we saw what Simon O'Connell had already managed to achieve on some really, pretty basic devices back then, which just really kind of started that thought of, What does the world look like when you're layering content on top of it? What does that mean for products, places, print, out of home, all these different elements, what's the use case for it just being kind of, inspirational, all the way through to being instructional and informational. and so that was such a, Fascinating thing to explore. The thing I guess we hadn't really thought about quite deeply enough back then is just how heavy a lift the education job was of getting people to, You know, augmented reality is always, I think, a terrible expression. It's not something that, you know, you still, if you say to someone, I mean, I bore my wife with this one, but, you know, whenever anyone asks you, what do you do, do not say,"I do augmented reality," because they're just like, I'm bored already. So you don't know what it means. So, you know, I think if, had we known just how much you had to continue to explain that, then maybe we wouldn't have taken it on quite so much.

people I work in augmented reality is one of my favorite things to do. So I'm feeling a little bit called out. but I don't disagree. Caspar, one of the reasons. I was really excited to talk with you on the glow up is that, uh, right. We're exploring this idea of the innovation journey, how you get a product out to market. And just like you said, the innovation, the startup journey is so much. A marathon rather than a sprint. And this idea that you shared on stage at AWE in June actually was one of the strong impetuses for starting the glow up. I was like, oh my gosh, Casper is so right. We focus so much on the end product and not on All of the work, the tweaks, the adjustments, the pivots that go in to actually having a product that hits. And so 13 years on, you're describing, you're still learning about the market, you're still understanding the customers. But in this narrative, I think the most important thing is you're still here, and talking about it, and that Zappar is here. 13 years is amazing, it's ancient history, if you're a restaurant, it's pretty outstanding if you're a startup. So, I have, two questions about this journey, One is how did you get here? how did you make it 13 years? and the second part is really, uh, how did you stay connected to the idea in that entrepreneurial mindset, which often feels so fast and furious for 13 years. And I can remind you if you want to take them in pieces.

You know, I think you have to be honest and say that that journey across 13 years is certainly not straight and linear. It's been, you know, very winding. I think what's fascinating about the space that we're in is that there are so many dimensions that you have to think about in a way. Firstly, the market didn't exist, so you're creating a market. so that's one thing that you've got to go, okay, well, how are we going to create the, or how, let's say it's just us, but you're a small cabal of companies that are trying to stand up, this space. So that's one dimension. Then you've got the one that, AR is just one technology amongst many. and if you look over the span of 13 years of just how much technological progress has been at a hardware and a software and, computing level, there's so many things that kind of ebb and flow that you've got to also kind of, Be attuned to. And then there's the fact that, when you are a small company and there are some very, very big, technological titans, you are sort of always living in a constant sort of existential threat of them being able to totally blate you. so there's quite a lot of different things that you are trying to think about. Which, I have to say, also makes it"constantly exciting, because you've got to do that thing of, you know, you're in business to make money, right? So I think a principle of ours was, from the start, is we have to prove that this technology is something that someone actually wants to buy. And so I guess we didn't go down the classic route of, well, let's just get loads of bucket loads of investment in, spend it all at once and then hope that there's something at the end of it. It was more of a,"okay, let's try and understand as much as we can what the user wants, what the commercial model is, and how the technology is helping and enhancing that user experience." You know, on reflection, I kind of think, you know, what is it that we're trying to do? We're trying to make technology enhance the human experience. and whether that's about actually creating more compelling sort of interactive content that is delivering value or whether, you know, when we talk about some stuff we do with accessibility, it's about how actually you can use technology, in a simple way to help sort of transform everyday lives. Those are quite interesting concepts and thoughts to try and sort of, you know, understand.

to kind of pause you there actually, because you What you described is really counter to what I was expecting. And the first thing that you said was that augmented reality was such like an amorphous vision of what a technology could be. It is so hypothetical that, instead you described building this company based on this value of making technology more impactful, for people. And that seems like that's led you into very specific. I mean, you mentioned a couple of them. I'd love if you'd dive in. instead of like trying to achieve technology perfectly, you're working from this vision, this ethos of it needs to be for people. and there you find all of these different parts that come together for it. Can you talk about, you know, identifying one of those problems, connecting with customers? And I'm, I'm hoping you could get a little specific of like, how do you in this journey, identify a problem and then connect with the customers to really know that you've got it,

that's good. And goodness, we've helped solve lots of different problems, some which are completely, you know, frivolous to some that are really actually quite sort of important. I keep coming back to the point that, you know, two fundamentals for me is, Augmented Reality. No one cares. No one cares about AR. They care about what the value is that the technology gives them. They don't care about the technology. It's a bit like explaining to someone, the importance of a light bulb. I don't want to know. I just want to have light in the room. so there's a bit which is. Kind of constantly going, what's this for? And then I think what we've been absolutely fortunate about is the types of conversations we've had with different partners along the way that made us think about what that use case is. So, you know, one at the very start was actually some of the work we did with Hasbro, funnily enough, you know, and they had a really, fantastic, department. It's almost, they talked about activated play. What's that kind of link between physical and digital? And we ended up sort of, you know, at that point we were creating our own sort of, code schemes because, you know, Simon's work was particularly good at fast object recognition on mobile devices, but, you know, they're small in the camera view. And so we were trying to solve for, well, how could you on, you know, Littlest Pet Shop or My Little Pony or Transformers create an extended experience around that play pattern, that could bring those characters to life and add, you know, sort of a new dimension to that. Really interesting problem to solve because you're, you know, on so many levels. One is, well, how do you actually print these different codes on lots of different, you know, substrates at line speed for them to work? So that's quite technical and interesting, but how do you make that? technical, solution, magical, so that it's easy to use for families and kids, in order to make these, the, these kind of digital connections. So you end up going, well, that's a really interesting use case. If we've understood how to do that, how else could that be applied in different areas? And it was just like, well, maybe that can be used for, actually different sort of promotions and things that you can do off connected pack under ring pulls of, of things. So you sort of go, there's something really interesting there. If we've made this. type of custom code scheme that can exist on different products that can unlock, content. so I guess that's one end of the spectrum. The other one is, you know, a more recent one, say, three or four years ago when Unilever came to us and sort of said, look,"We are really interested, in, a purpose driven organization about how we can tackle the issue of accessibility on product packaging. We know we have certain challenges. We've got, 40, 000 different, products in the market. in order for that to scale, it's quite hard to do that with image lookup. We have precious little space on our pack, so we can't introduce a new code scheme. But you know what? We are beginning to put, QR codes on all our packaging as part of the Connected Pack Strategy. Is there a way that we can sort of augment a QR code in order to, help, people who are, blind or have low vision access information?" And you go,"interesting challenge, I'm sure we can help you with that." And funnily enough, because there was some other technology we were working on on Zapbox, our headset, which had a code scheme that was on the controllers for making work on the fast motion, we were like, well, maybe we could take that technology and put it around a QR code and solve that problem. So if you'd asked me 13 years ago, would we be in the business of making a, enhancement to a QR code that could help make access to informational packaging a basic human right, I'd have gone, that wouldn't have occurred to me. But, the journey takes you there. and actually the Hasbro example is linked to the Zapvision One because all the Hasbro work and when we started was about how do we find things when they're very small in the camera view and how do we make that work really quickly. that. does have a connection to the technology that then underpins what we've done with Zapbox and other things. But goodness me, it's not linear,

Hardest things, you know, whether you're, you know, imagining your career. whether you're imagining the vision of, you know, a new business, uh, the idea that everything that has brought you to this moment, you know, is getting you ready for the moment. When you were talking about print speeds and, you know, the scale of creating, you know, codes for Hasbro, I was like, oh gosh, this is the seed of, you know, product labeling. You, you said something about this QR code that I want to make sure that I get really clear, because you also have a value based vision for those QR codes. Could you could you say that again and maybe dive in on to the the right of Accessibility and packaging that you mentioned?

Well, there's a very, very simple and very important problem that exists in the world, which is for the over 300 million people who, are blind or, have low vision, they can't, readily access information on products and packaging. And that is, robbing them of their independence. It's a daily challenge. and it is a problem that, technology can solve. Again, I think what's fascinating is that had we come up with this idea 13 years ago, it would never have got the traction that it can get now. And the reason for that is that, and this is where maybe, I think, innovation is the key. And that sort of innovation journey has to be in lockstep with timing of other things happening from other directions. So, you know, there is also change in legislation that's coming around the use of barcodes and symbologies on packaging in general. So there's a move towards QR. More people are doing that. more brands are understanding, you know, post Covid that actually QR is, a great way to trigger a brand engagement and direct conversation with customers from their packaging, which, is valuable data and an insight and one to one connection they didn't have. And there's legislative change that's saying, you know, in the age of a more conscientious consumer, That everyone wants to know more about where their product and packaging came from. How was it made? You know, how do I recycle it? What's the So, in that moment, because then businesses are more interested, in QR Unpack, become more purpose driven, thinking more about how can they be more inclusive. It allowed us to come up with a simple way to put some dots and dashes, effectively, round the corner of a QR code. That means that we can scan that code from much greater distances, we can announce it, we can tap into the accessibility features on device in order to have all that product information read out to the user. So suddenly, you end up going Actually, the idea of a QR code, wholly inaccessible if you are blind or, have low vision. But with this enhancement, just putting this, creating this accessible QR code, as we call it, well, suddenly you have something that can offer the same parity and information to the sighted and to the blind and low vision community. Super simple. Why I think it lands well is that it's so scalable. It doesn't require, you know, if you're a brand manager. If I know I'm putting QR on already, and all I have to do is put some dot stashes, it's not going to need a new print process, it's not going to need a whole new sort of setup, it's just part of my, connected pack playbook already. It's actually a really easy win. And by the way, even if you're hard nosed enough not to care about that community, You've also got to go, there's a commercial opportunity there because it's actually a very vocal community that is supported by a big network of family and friends and colleagues. And actually that's, you know, they call it the Purple Pound. there's, there's money there if that's the way you want to look at it. So, I think what was, incredibly heartening having I guess being in business for a while is to know that we've gone from, making codes that exist on toys to now supporting codes that can really help change the narrative for, many people around the world is really important. did we set out to do it? No.

Mm hmm.

Am I pleased that that's where we've ended up? Certainly. but we're, again, that's the start of another journey, right? We're only

hmm

It'll be really interesting to see where it goes.

I love this idea that like, making toys a decade ago gave you the tools and power that you needed, to be able to create this accessibility, tool today. And. That you were open, and quite literally in this case, it sounds like open to feedback from customers that helped you to, change and, direct your product roadmap. And, I imagine. when you're making augmented reality tools, when you have a platform for creators, when you're creating these hardware, these accessible hardware, items like the Zapbox, when a company as big as Unilever shows up and they have a big idea, you want to listen. But it, an accessible QR code or, you know, accessible packaging seems so far away from that core mission or that core technology that you'd been working on. How how do you take that customer feedback and incorporate it into your roadmap in a way that doesn't just completely sideswipe the rest of what you're doing, right? This seemed like a good idea. It seemed like a great customer. It seems like it's also a complete pivot. So like as a leader, how do you share that and get the buy on from your team? And as a business, how do you like bifurcate all of that? How the team, responded to this kind of feedback and opportunity?

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, I've got to say, I might have the mantle of CEO, but as a founding group, you know, we work incredibly closely together. it's certainly not me at the top of the spear. It's all of us, you know, thinking and working together. I think, with something like Zapvision and AQR, It might sound like it is kind of off at a tangent, but actually, for us, we've always been interested in, the value proposition of, computer vision technologies and augmented reality, in regards to, products in general. we've always had this belief, When you think about the trillions of products that exist in the market that have effectively been passively sitting on the shelf, and indeed are brands really most valuable owned media real estate, that there's a totally different way to think about the value of that passive print actually commercially and on your balance sheet. You know, because what it opens up is that you can have a relationship with your customers, not only at a point of purchase, but points of use and, that point of consumption. And sometimes that individual is different, because the person buying it might be the person using it. And that's, Incredibly interesting because it also opens up an entirely new data set that didn't really exist for lots of brands and businesses about what is my customer doing it when they're using it?" It means that you can use that for lots of different things. it could be instructional information, it could be promotional information, or it could be, you know, buy again. It could be so many different things. So I think we always had an interest in the idea of what AR could really do is unlock the potential, the hidden potential in products for brand owners and customers. I guess at the point where it was, It's actually, we're not serving a large part of the community who are blind or have low vision. Actually, it's not such a big leap. If that becomes a bit where you go, we have an opportunity here to make a genuine difference. to many people's lives. it sounds ironic, but once you've unsee it, is how I look at it. So, selfishly, it sits very neatly within our overall core vision of, well, we have, a content authoring platform that can allow brands and businesses to create that content for their packaging. and we're just layering, alongside that. a capability to make those things accessible. and indeed, you know, we can also make those experiences for our partners through our own internal studio, if they so choose. I guess they, to us at least internally, they feel, they feel like they are part of a similar vision. I think there's also a thing there that, you know, you feel like you're doing the right thing, but you also go, goodness me, that's a massive opportunity. so I think that most people will go, no, you know, I actually genuinely do. I would like to have this conversation. and I think what the smart thing is, is the simplicity of the solution. I think that that's the thing, is to connect. We've got such a mountain to climb yet, right? We're only in the foothills of making this something that will change, hopefully, the industry. But you've got to connect the community, start with the users. So what are all the reasons they're going to say no? so that you go, oh, I need a new code on pack. No, I haven't got enough. Oh gosh, does it have to be just through your app? No, I'm not going to, you know, use your app because ours is an SDK that goes in apps already used by the community. It needs a new print technique. No, not doing that. Oh, do I have to set up a new database? No, not that. So you sort of go, how do we solve for all the no's? wow, so actually I'm doing QR anyway on packaging. Why wouldn't I make it accessible? What is the impediment to me doing this thing that can only be good for my brand, my business, and my conscience? so I think, that's where the fun and innovation and where I am absolutely blessed to have people like Simon and Connell who can actually deliver on those, because it's one thing going, oh, there's an opportunity there. There's the other people going, I know how to solve this. so that is the joy of,

I'm so inspired, I'm having a hard time not just diving in on this. there's a couple things that I want to call out because I think they're really so important, right? Like, your discussion of this accessible QR code. As, like, the beginning to a brand's understanding of how people are using their packages and products in home. As, like, an extra layer of product metadata that consumers, blind individuals, or maybe folks who don't speak the language that product was, you know, written in. I moved to Japan without any language skills, and for the first six months was functionally illiterate and basically had to do all of my grocery store shopping by taking the package that I used the last time for dish soap and finding that same package, right? And so like having some metadata that would help me translate or identify or just point me at laundry detergent would have been amazing. There are all of these parts, I love this idea that like your product packaging and, and right, all of the serial manufacturers in the U. S. know that like, That's where you get kids attention. this idea that infrastructure didn't exist. And so you're creating this component to a whole new layer of, what you described it as like connected packaging. Rather than saying, hey, we could put AR on your package, you now have the ability to say, this package can now hold data, this package is now networked, this package is now digital, right? And so instead of throwing technology at a consumer or, at a business, you're showing them and giving them opportunities to grow. So, absolutely love it.

Right. it's also not a journey that you do alone as a business. You know, we've been unbelievably fortunate to work with some fantastic partners. at one point, we were lucky enough to be, the visual discovery, tool inside Shazam, and Shazam were a Phenomenal gateway for us to speak to lots of brands and businesses there's an amazing company in the UK called CEC who are very cleverly, you know, sort of understood how to help brands and businesses understand how to architect for QR on pack and actually how to understand and measure the value for that. Because one of the things we know about AR is, you know, it's never, managed to find its own, standard of measurement in the way that other media channels have. And it suffers because of it, because, you know, for a lot of brand owners, they want to understand, what that ROI is going to be, and they want to be able to measure it. But unless you have a systematized and, you know, understood level of measurement, as you do in other digital media, it's always going to be that thing that kind of comes on and off the media plan and you do once and, you know, you don't carry on. So companies like CDC are very, you know, smart in that regard in sort of, especially within packaging, understanding and measuring and, you know, being able to predict, what sort of results you'll get. similarly the QR code for Pluralsight, These are great techniques. partners that we're lucky enough to work with. we have an amazing one we're just about to do some new work with, called Auki Labs, who I would definitely check out. And a wonderful, CEO there called Niels. and so

partnership I am excited to see more from.

met Neil? He's incredible.

some, we did some, projects with Auki QR Codes and some of their, visual positioning grids,

there you go.

the, the sort of, like, networked triangulation and, like, scaled precision that they have in that platform is very interesting,

Well, so imagine you layer accessibility onto that. I mean, that's what's so interesting. You go, here's a way that someone is creating unbelievable ways to map a space. We can help their scanning and detection of QR be better with AQR. we can bring Mattercraft, our content authoring platform, into, creating the sort of AR overlays for it. But we can also then, you know, that's the next sort of chapter, I guess, is go, how do we create an accessibility API for what they're doing? Because, those partnerships, I think the other innovation thing is not everything, you don't have to do everything yourself. sometimes you do go, this is what we do great, here's where we, maybe we could do this, but it's going to take us a lot of time and resource. And frankly, there's someone else who does it really well. So let's work with them. and that's fun as well, because that cross pollination of technologies and thinking takes you again to a different place again, and that's exciting.

Those partnerships are so key, Got, especially as a multi talented, multi interested person, I want to be in everything, that as a founder, one of my biggest struggles is to focus and keep in my wheelhouse. And so, this idea of find partners that allow you to stay where you are strong, to work in your strengths, your passions, I think, is absolutely crucial. Caspar, we are blazing through these questions. So there's this. You've painted such a great journey. I'm really appreciating, right? We go back to 13 years ago when, there was interest in this complex technology idea and you started building the foundations of it, waiting for the industry, the regulations, the community, the understanding, the analytics to all come up to where your vision is. So. How do you know when you've made it?

Oh, god, there are different, well, there's so many different metrics to that. Because there's one, you know, how you feel as an individual. I guess there's one, how, whether you've delivered what you've said. And by the way, if you've got investors, they'll also have a specific view of how you think you've made it. And I guess maybe there's an industry one, you know, as well, just how you feel you sit against your peers and where you are. yeah. Candidly, do I think we're, personally, it's a personal view, are we where I thought we'd be 13 years ago? No, I wish that we'd be bigger. But when I look at the landscape of all the different riders, from when we started to where we are now, I'm happy with where we are and I'm excited about the next period. so what do we measure success by? I mean, obviously we measure success by, you know, our customers, you know, our community of content, you know, developers who use our platform, the feedback we get from the work that we do as a studio. I mean, there's a role. Right. you know, we're a business, we want to be in profit and we've lived through some unbelievably hard times as all businesses have, coming through COVID and, you know, the economy and, you know, what's happened in Immersive and XR, I think we're doing all right. On that front as well. but then you also have these other things that I guess are a bit more intangible. You know, we talked a bit about Zapvision, but Zapbox as well, I think to be a business of our size, and to have stood up a piece of hardware as an iPhone accessory, for under a hundred bucks that can do what it can do as a mixed values product, that is incredible, with the team that we've got. I'm incredibly proud of and, and that's something that I would say is a measure of success. I don't know, you know, there's so many different ways and so many different people will look at it differently. I don't think we think we're at the end of any journey yet, you know, value perspective. I think we're just feeling like, there's a really interesting, point now between where we are now and what happens, up to 2030. And I'm really excited about that.

To me what that sounds like is that you have the team, you have the understanding of your business, and, the impacts and values that you're trying to put forth in the world, and, you have enough experience and success that makes, these future problems not only feel like ones that you are inspired and want to go tackle, but that you have the skills and team there to do it. I love to hear that 13 years in you're still excited about the juicy problems and, all of these different directions that you could go.

Well, the last thing on that is, it's a very, there's a very simple philosophy to all of this, I think, which is, you know,"in business, you need to focus on, you know, your people. That's really simple. Your purpose, your product, your passion, and your profitability will follow." but it starts with people, product, purpose, you know, and if you can get that mix right, I believe, of course, you've got to layer onto that, you know, bit of luck, bit of hard work, bit of timing, but then I think you're good to go. and also, if it doesn't work after that, you know that You've done everything that you could, because sometimes that timing could be out and it might not work, or things can go south for many reasons, but you

so true, there's so many parts that, we don't get to control, in that journey, um, I've been really fighting with this idea of hard work, because I think, it's a little misleading.

Hmm. Interesting.

you can do All of the hard work and work very, very hard, but if you are not focused on your customer value, on your core product strengths, right, like, if you're a SaaS API and you're, like, hanging out on social media every day, You're maybe doing way more work, than your pro pro you know, your

Yes, you're

and so the work to focus, doing the work to really commit, doing the work. and I would say the hardest part, this is what I'm experiencing currently, The hard work is pushing your own boundaries and pushing yourself to grow and respond to the feedback that you're hearing, while also maintaining that sense of self and, of purpose. How do you go and stretch yourself while keeping that identity, keeping that core, to me, I think is way more important hard work than just making sure you write every blog post or

Oh, no, you're right.

every event.

That's very well qualified, Nathan.

Caspar, it has been such a joy to chat with you today. you've mapped out this wonderful 13 year journey, that includes great partners, great collaborators and co founders, and audiences with opinions that you listened and responded to. so many things, in this episode, that you shared, that I think any entrepreneur Product Leader, Founder, Ken Learn, and GrowFarm. I can't wait to see what the next 13 years at Zappar have in store. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really lovely conversation.

Pleasure, Nathan. Thanks so much.